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Sean O'Connor's Games • View topic - No more Melee Weapons?

No more Melee Weapons?

Real time World War II combat simulation

No more Melee Weapons?

Postby Akfrost » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:25 am

I seem to recall in version 1 or 2, soldiers could be killed by a bayonette.

However, I just set some elite troops to 0 ammo (but still with weapon_rifle) for two countries and pitted them against each other. Neither seemed particularly inclined to even touch each other, much less bust out melee weapons.

So has melee weapons been removed? Despite some in-game descriptions implying that they're still in?
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby tamorrison » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:10 pm

The AI for infantry dictates that infantry with no ammunition will not close with an enemy. The only melee weapon I saw in the game was the Chinese Big Sword section, which did indeed score a bayonet kill against a Japanese soldier after the Japanese ran out of ammunition. Why a bayonet and not a sword kill? I don't know.

Having bayonets would add a further touch of realism to the game. Melee weapons would also allow modding the game to reflect Napoleonic skirmishes, WWII cavalry charges, and intense close combat as seen in the urban battles of Manila, Budapest, Stalingrad, and Berlin.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby Akfrost » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:50 am

There's also the japanese HQ section, where the commander is said to have a sword.

If they're out of ammo, they should still charge the opponent, though they should get suppressed a lot easier.

After all, there's no point to have a melee weapon if you're not gonna use it when you're out of ammo.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby tamorrison » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:35 pm

It was actually rare for troops who were out of ammo to fix bayonets and charge opponents who still had ammo. When they did, however, the results were often dramatic, due to the psychological effect of a disciplined bayonet charge: the fear of close combat with a better fighter would make Raw troops panic and flee. Bayonet charges should only be allowed for Elite troops of all nations, Japanese troops of any quality, and Regular troops within a certain radius of an Elite leader who is leading the charge. Obviously, only troops armed with a melee weapon (bayonet or sword) should be allowed to conduct a bayonet charge.

Edit: Gurkhas excelled at close combat and were greatly feared. Even Gurkhas who for whatever reason are not Elite should be allowed to engage in melee combat. The Gurkha kukri, while neither a swrd nor a bayonet, should be considered a sword for purposes of melee combat due to the Gurkhas' skill.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby TheKangaroo » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:22 am

I believe bayonet kills still do happen in Firefight. You can sometimes see them as cause of death in your squad overviews. Swords count as bayonet because... well, it doesn't make much of a difference to the game. The thing is that troops that have no ammo don't make bayonet charges. Their morale suffers from running low on ammunition which in turn makes them retreat away from enemy forces.
They pretty much just turn up when soldiers literally jump each other; there are no organised bayonet charges.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby tamorrison » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Well, bayonet charges did indeed happen in WW2. The Rumanians trapped in Stalingrad performed several, personally led by general officers, three of whom died. This reinforces my earlier post stating that troops of any quality being led by an Elite leader should be allowed to conduct a bayonet charge.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby TheKangaroo » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:26 pm

I didn't mean to say there shouldn't be any. It's just that an organised bayonet charge is pretty much contrary to how the AI in Firefight works.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby tamorrison » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:43 pm

Well, it probably should be contrary to how the AI works because bayonet charges were a rarity in WW2, as it was normally a desperation move (with the exception of cavalry and Gurkhas). German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel was an avid fan of bayonet attacks in WW1 and was quite successful in routing French troops in 1914 with this tactic, yet he noted in his book, Attacks, that "In a man to man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." Yet with bolt-action rifles being the standard infantry weapon, the time it took to reload a five-round internal magazine or even to chamber a new round could be fatal in close combat, which made massed bayonet charges a viable tactic when the combatants were close, such as in urban or jungle terrain. Rommel was able to succeed in bayonet charges in open ground in France in 1914 because the French infantry had few automatic weapons, little or no close fire support, and exceptionally poor rifle marksmanship. Able to close with the French with little fear of casualties, the Germans time and again exploited the psychological advantage of the disciplined bayonet attack to cause the French to flee before actual close combat began.

However, the game should allow a commander to organize a bayonet charge under certain conditions, as stated earlier: Japanese or Gurkha forces of any quality, Elite forces and horse cavalry of any nationality, and forces of any quality or nationality within line of sight of an Elite commander who is personally leading the charge.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby Knut » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:35 am

I get 'bayonneted' as a reason for a kill in the latest version fairly often.
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby nikkil » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:45 pm

You're never a loser until you quit trying. Image
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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby princeron » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:23 am

I do not weep at the world I am too busy sharpening my

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Re: No more Melee Weapons?

Postby Akfrost » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:22 am

no bayonet charges is actually quite eurocentric, which isn't surprising given this game's roots (iirc, version 1 had no asiatic countries or wars at all).

The Chinese battlefield, especially in occupied areas, involved melee weaponry far more than bullets, purely because the chinese were underequipped the entire war. Entire chinese corps (i.e. Song Zheyuan's 29th Corps) were levied with more training in melee combat than marksmanship.

Of course, the Japanese were no slouches either. Many soldiers reported that on average a Japanese soldier can take on three Chinese soldiers in a melee brawl during WWII. Exaggerated or not, both countries do have a tradition in melee combat that should be reflected in firefight.
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