Rules questions...

Real time World War II combat simulation
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Fenris
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Rules questions...

Post by Fenris » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:37 pm

Just wondering whether I need to take any of the following into account --

* Fatigue (guess: yes, although it's not shown?)

* LOS of (somebody?) to arty target? (guess: would hope so, but game help don't indicate AFAICT, and 3.0 doesn't seem to have dedicated FOs)

* Effect of repeated shots against same stationary target (e.g. accuracy bonus for ranging) (guess: yes)

* Sound-based location (the 3.0 interface doesn't appear to show sound contacts.. but that doesn't mean that a nearby menacing sound wouldn't freak out a squad that hears it, or help locate when it's already in LOS)

* Foxholes/trenches? (e.g. maybe not even shown, but concealment/cover bonuses for defensive inf/guns that haven't moved?) (guess: they're not shown, but... ?)

* Tank buttoning/unbuttoning? Buttoning would hurt vision/hearing, disable any non-remote 'flexible'-mount mg, preserve Captain... (guess: no)

* Non-penetrating hits vs crew? (guess: no; so far, I've never had a crewmember hurt from a non-penetrating hit)

* Terrain effects on arty lethality, such as from airbursts in woods?

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Andy
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Post by Andy » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:49 pm

* Fatigue

seemingly no affect. the only thing that works in any way like fatigue is a build up of minor injuries. these engagements are only generally about 40 mins, max ive had is 2 hrs for a defence. fatigue would only really come into affect over a few hours of combat, with the resources available to rotate and rest units, whilst maintaining the momentum of an attack, which as far as ive picked up is usually done on a regimental level (rest D coy, replace with A coy), and as this is a company scale engagement...

* LOS of (somebody?) to arty target?

presumably done with maps, as you can hit anywhere with the off board arty. you have to aim it to concentrations of enemy to make it effective, though. with on board artillery the field guns pick and choose their own targets. irritatingly this usually overrides your choice of target

* Effect of repeated shots against same stationary target (e.g. accuracy bonus for ranging)

just watch FGs having a go at pinned enemy soldiers...

* Sound-based location

not sure what you mean. the sound of shots is now faded and balanced for distance ad direction of shot relative to the viewing screen (lots of quiet shooting lets you know something is happening where you aint looking). most of the precise locating is done with the muzzle flashes, and then specific spotting of enemy soldiers

* Foxholes/trenches?

no holes/ditches for infatry to hide in, only dead ground (infantry often follow valleys and ravines to go around a sticky patch if theyre in open ground). as for bonuses for not moving, this follows one of the main reasons why things are seen - movement. this doesnt go down to such a picky scale as rotating gets you seen, but the moment you move a FG an inch everyone seems to spot it, shortly before it explodes...

* Tank buttoning/unbuttoning? Buttoning would hurt vision/hearing, disable any non-remote 'flexible'-mount mg, preserve Captain...

tanks seem to be buttoned from the start, as tanks have appaling vision, usually requiring close infantry support to spot infantry and FGs, they USUALLY see tanks alright, but sometimes are absolute rubbish at this, esp if the tank doesnt move (as above)

* Non-penetrating hits vs crew?

nah, if a shell get thru the hull the tanks gone, some crew can get out and be used as infantry (i seem to use them as spotted for remaining AFVs, due to their proximity to whatever took them out, and the fact that enemy tanks wont be able to spot them)

* Terrain effects on arty lethality, such as from airbursts in woods?

nope, they seem to get to ground all the way. not sure what affect that rounds into water has, would guess normal affect
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Last edited by Andy on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fenris
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Post by Fenris » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:12 am

* Sound-based location

not sure what you mean. the sound of shots is now faded and balanced for distance ad direction of shot relative to the viewing screen (lots of quiet shooting lets you know something is happening where you aint looking). most of the precise locating is done with the muzzle flashes, and then specific spotting of enemy soldiers



Ah. What I had in mind was something CM-like -- e.g. if you have infantry waiting on a reverse slope, hoping to ambush attackers at close range as they near the crest, they might be able to hear engine noise of AFVs as they approach -- even though they can't actually see them. Likewise, somebody who's cowering in a building might not see an enemy, but he might hear him, and therefore know that something is being noisy in a rough direction.

* Foxholes/trenches?

no holes/ditches for infatry to hide in, only dead ground (infantry often follow valleys and ravines to go around a sticky patch if theyre in open ground). as for bonuses for not moving, this follows one of the main reasons why things are seen - movement. this doesnt go down to such a picky scale as rotating gets you seen, but the moment you move a FG an inch everyone seems to spot it, shortly before it explodes...


Hm, so no non-spotting bonuses for remaining pat, then. I was thinking it might have been abstracted out -- e.g. defender unit getting extra cover and concealment until he relocates.

Spotting seems a bit tight in 3.0 at times... I managed to drive a Sherman up to meet an Elefant at the top of a grassy hill, with both far from any supporting infantry -- and visual contact was not established until their sprites intersected. Hmm. I'd also wonder how concealed a decent field piece like a 75mm PaK can remain when it's actually firing while enemy infantry are within easy grenade range and looking right at it. *shrug*

Andy Brown
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Post by Andy Brown » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:29 pm

Hm, so no non-spotting bonuses for remaining pat, then. I was thinking it might have been abstracted out -- e.g. defender unit getting extra cover and concealment until he relocates.


It's not that kind of game. In Firefight, a casualty occurs when a virtual bullet intersects a virtual man. If you're behind a stone wall, the "bonus" is the fact that the bullet is more likely to intersect the stone wall than the soldier behind it.

Spotting seems a bit tight in 3.0 at times... I managed to drive a Sherman up to meet an Elefant at the top of a grassy hill, with both far from any supporting infantry -- and visual contact was not established until their sprites intersected.


It's possible the shape of the hill prevented the two vehicles from seeing each other. Unfortunately, it's often difficult to recognise the finer points of Firefight topography from its graphical representation. A lot of the hills tend to be convex with lots of dead ground on their lower slopes for an observer at the top.

Cheers,

Andy

Quitch
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Post by Quitch » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:57 pm

I like the idea of hearing tank engine sounds as they approach your men though.

Also, I've always said the game would benefit from some of those line things that show height on the hills, or perhaps some exaggerated shading.

Andy Brown
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Post by Andy Brown » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:54 am

Quitch wrote:I like the idea of hearing tank engine sounds as they approach your men though.


Might work. After all, you get to hear firing off screen. Still, it can be quite hard to meaningfully pick the sound of an engine out of all the other noise and confusion on a battlefield. It's not quite the same as listening for it on a quiet summer evening. A possible improvement but a low priority one, in my extremely humble and lowly opinion :)

Also, I've always said the game would benefit from some of those line things that show height on the hills, or perhaps some exaggerated shading.


Contour lines. Although to be meaningful, I think you'd need so many of them that they'd spoil the look of the map. I was thinking more along the lines of the colour shading you see on geographic maps where the low ground is dark green and the higher ground changes through lighter greens to oranges to dark yellows to light yellow etc at the very top. Each pixel would be colour-coded according to it's height. But then you've got the problem of winter maps in differing shades of grey and white.

I'd really like "something" to be done, though. In almost every game, at some stage I find myself having to develop a mental picture of part of the terrain by running the cursor over it and reading off the height. I've found a couple of forest/winter maps with lots of trees and rough/scrub/whatever to be unplayable because I simply couldn't make out where the dead ground was.

Cheers,

Andy Brown

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Andy
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Post by Andy » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:29 pm

Andy Brown wrote:A lot of the hills tend to be convex with lots of dead ground on their lower slopes for an observer at the top.


thats a good point ive noticed and been annoyed at, but never really thought much about - does the terrain generate concave and even slopes?? what about cliffs? i know ive mentioned it before, but i think it would be a good thing to have, especially with the plan view of firefight - i was always annoyed with the cliffs in Age of Empires that could hide things behind them....
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