My comments/questions after trying the game...

Lead your people to safety before Atlantis disintegrates
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Old Man Johnson
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My comments/questions after trying the game...

Post by Old Man Johnson » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:35 am

Well, it was interesting...but it ran slow on my 300 MHz computer. Could you tell me why? Is it the graphics? Because if it is, then there could be some sort of option like in CM...

Are you putting network play?

Sea monsters are ridiculously good. The computer got 3 moves on it and wiped out 5 enemy guys in boats. Make them slower. It's also pretty ridiculous how you can just sit sea monsters in front of island entrances...

Make the dolphin not show up as much. Those things are pretty useless to move at the moment, as the computers always move them away. If it doesn't how up as much, it's harder to use (you have to either move swimmers there or on rare occasion move the dolphin) and better (because the comps don't mess up your plan).

Do guys die if the hex they're on sinks and they have nowhere to jump AND a boat appears under them? I'm a little suspicious but have no evidence.

EDIT: Sea monsters should be able to eat other animals, and so should sharks. It sort of makes sense...
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Post by OrigamiGuy » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:39 pm

If you delete a hex with guys on it who have nowhere to run, then the game acts just like they had been in the water with the thing under the hex appearing on top of them. If it's a boat, then the guys go into the boat. If it's a dolphin, they're swimming with the dolphin. If it's a sea monster, they get eaten.

I agree about nerfing the sea monsters down so they're less powerful. If you read my earlier post, I suggested that sea monsters only be able to move 1-2 hexes randomly, instead of 1-3. Octopi should get up to 3, and sharks up to four. It would make sharks more dangerous, and sea monsters would be much easier to avoid if they were guaranteed only 2 movement points.
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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:01 am

Too much random things to have a control on the game... luck is the base of this game ... I dont like it for that.

Raist

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Post by Old Man Johnson » Sat Feb 19, 2005 1:35 am

Well, it wouldn't be a very interesting game if you could predict almost everything...
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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:16 am

Hum... I mean strategy!!! Like with Slay... no luck at all with slay, I mean the starting is always different but you see it and you apply a strategy. You dont have any random thing ...

Is it much clear?

Raistlin

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Post by OrigamiGuy » Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:58 pm

I used to hate Risk and their ilk, simply because of all the dice rolling that goes on. It wasn't until much later that I realized that random chance is just as much a part of strategy as anything else. After all, a real commander in a real war has no control over certain things. How many commanders in history could control the weather, for example?

Yes, it's random and there's nothing you can do about it. Deal with it! Sometimes that's part of the game. :-)
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Post by Old Man Johnson » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:34 am

Those ancient Israelites from the Bible...
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Post by Sean OConnor » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:32 am

This game is based on a board game called "Escape From Atlantis" so I'm sticking fairly closely to their rules. I know that there's a huge amount of randomness in the game so it's not full of strategy like Slay, but it's just meant to be a bit of fun and not taken too seriously!

I will add networking but I'll release a non-networkable version first and then add networking in version 2.0

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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:05 pm

Some suggestions:

I found that the Artificial Intelligent is not perfect ... Example: If the computer have to play a shark for 2 moves and the best move is to play only one move and stop after... he will play the first move correctly and he will move back because he dont want stop ... it look like computer will always play all full move for beast.

I didnt see computer use octopuse to protect his swimmer at all ...

If i have a member alone in a ship with 2 opponents he cannot control the ship. I think that could be different for the king.

I though the prince was a seaman with his little white cap :)

That could be interesting to change that for a seaman with some advantage. Like he can swim faster or boat have an extra move or the boat is not destroy by whirlpool if you have 1 seaman or the boat is destroy but seaman survive something like that.
When we have 3 of our tribe in a boat in same time i think that could give an advantage because they work better together.

Its all the idea I have for now... I hope they are interesting you :)

Raistlin

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Post by Old Man Johnson » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:14 am

Interesting grammar, Raistlin... :lol: I like it.

But he has a point. What about special classes of people, like the seamen he mentioned, or like people who can attack/defend against sea creatures? Or expert rowers (for the boats) that increase movement? Maybe it's too complicated to go in the game, but it's an interesting idea.
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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:13 am

I dont know how many language you talk old man johnson but English is my third language. So, sorry if you find my grammar interesting. Dont forget that on internet you can met people of all country.

Raistlin

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Post by Old Man Johnson » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:28 am

I stand corrected. 3 languages...amazing...
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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 am

Another suggestion...

Why men cannot come back in the ship after arrived on an island. Its risky but can be usefull to take a boat to help swimmer sometime. I generally wait before get on an island with my last man in the ship but sometime planning change :)

Could be nice to have bigger map (size map option) with more land type because the land disapear pretty fast actually.

What about a submarine? can have an advantage and a flaw... like you can avoid octopus or sea monster but you have 2 or 3 turn before submarine get out of air and everybody inside die.

Can be nice to introduce some artifact in the game that give you opportunity to make a special move. Artifact can be hidden on land or in a bottle in the sea or well something like that. The number of artifact in a game could be random 1-2 or 3 something like that. Special move can be:
freeze an island (nobody can remove it before x turn)
use it to add an island somewhere (A volcano hehe)
Kill a random monster or a specific monster or whatever
Limit the number of people on one land or on all land of same type during X turn.


I know these suggestion can change the game alot. But Im sure they arent all bad :)

Raistlin

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Post by Styro » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:49 pm

This is also similar to a boardgame I used to play as a kid called "Survive". My brothers and I really liked that game - it is nice to see a computer version. Here are a few of my observations about the game.

I agree with the post saying that the computer moves too slow. You want to be able to follow what they are doing, but it is tedious waiting for them now. I also agree that the sound for the whirlpool is a little long. It would be nice to be able to watch things sink (shrink?) into the whirlpool so I could know for sure what was dying (guys? creatures? boats?). I just cannot remember what was on every hex.

I don't know if the "Atlantis" game rules are different than "Survive", or if we just modified the rules ourselves, but I remember a couple differences. I was surprised that the creatures could not occupy the same space. This allows you to hide swimmers behind the octopus and makes swimmers with dolphins completely safe unless a whirlpool is opened up next to them or if someone else moves the dolphin. It also makes it more difficult to attack your opponents. With the random nature of creature movement, I'm lucky to get the right type and enough movement without having to worry about moving *around* other creatures that are in my way. In the couple games I played hardly anyone died from creatures. Most that died did so from whirlpools. Additionally, it creates a traffic-jam of boats near the "safe" land. This is not neccesarily bad, though. It gives you a chance to hurry and get a creature over there if you are lucky. I was never so lucky unfortunately. You would have to get the same creature two or three times in a row and not have the computer move it back on their turns. To a certain extent it might be nice to have the creatures have their own turn where one of each kind was selected to move and just moved toward the closest target regardless of color. Mostly the creatures just sit there and do nothing (or move back and forth) during the duration of the game. I try to get to an enemy, but rarely have success because of the issues identified.

We also just dumped people in the water when land was removed instead of moving them to nearby land. This also led to much more carnage. On the other hand, we allowed players to move empty boats so they could send them back to try to rescue their swimming friends. Part of the strategy of the game was also placing your men. Did you want to put your higher-point guys on the beach for a quick escape and risk getting them dumped in the water, or put them on a rock space?

As it is, I think it is a relatively fun game. I'm sure the AI will be improved. Since this is a first version, I didn't worry too much about the bad choices it was making, but tried to focus more on the overall gameplay. My main concerns were the speed of the computer moves and the difficulty of killing the enemy. It does feel much more random when almost everyone survives and you feel like you never really had a chance to kill off anyone.

Hopefully this is useful feedback. Thanks for continuing to develop these games for us!
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Raistlin
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Post by Raistlin » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:56 pm

Yeah, can be a fun option to have or not have possibility to move boat when empty.

After many game played, the computer has really a big problem with monster movement. Example, only one swimmer is left and he try to reach an island... the other computer doesnt try to bring monster to the swimmer ... they just play them random (like move right, come back to left and return to right)...this problem doesnt happen if the monster are already close to the swimmer, only when they are far.

Edited:
Another AI failure thing that is wrong in the movement of the computer is about dolphin. If a dolphin is in water, with 1 or 2 blue man (example) ... why the hell's the red player put 1 or 2 of his man in water on the dolphin when, if nobody move the dolphin, its the blue player that will move the dolphin on the next turn before red player. If someone move the dolphin before blue player can use it, blue and red players lose. And if its the blue player that use it, its the red player that stay in water alone... in both case red player lose.
Another thing when I play with random Island (not in demo) beach can be anywhere. So sometime we reveal a boat that is surround by land its totally stupid to see computer jump all his men inside the boat when the boat cant escape and when you have no idea if its not a monster or a whirlpool that will be reveal near you. Sometime you can take a chance if only one land is not reveal but you have to reveal it soon as possible to escape with your boat but its not what the computer do... he die generally with the boat 9/10.

I think thats all what I noticed with AI so far :) I hope thats help.


Raistlin

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