Stand off games (no possible winner)

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Leon
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Stand off games (no possible winner)

Post by Leon » Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:35 pm

I have just experienced this. I was playing Maze.isl 1 v 1 game, level "clever", computer going first.

Around 10th turn, the puter was evidently ahead of me. However, I got 2 Barons which protected 2 spearmen and the puter could not get any further. Nor could I for this matter. I played on about 10 turns and the situation did not change. Apparently, both sides had sound finances therefore neither side could be eliminated.

Has anyone else experienced a draw game ?

ps: I saved this game just in case it's a bug which needs to be corrected.
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Fusion_power
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Post by Fusion_power » Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:05 pm

It can happen but is usually the result of an inexperienced player. Most of the time there is a way you can position your men so you can either cut off the opponent or get him to move so you can get through his defenses.

Why on earth would you play 1 on 1 games? They're not much fun.

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Leon
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Post by Leon » Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:42 am

Fusion_power wrote:Why on earth would you play 1 on 1 games? They're not much fun.


1 v 1 games are a lot of fun. Some territories are best played 1 v 1 as 6 players would be too crowded.

Try to beat the puter on "clever" or "very clever" when the puter goes first

So far, I have not managed it. The draw is the best I ever got. I am a newbie at this game so I find it excellent training.

Good luck. You'll need it ...! lol
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Fusion_power
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Post by Fusion_power » Sat Sep 04, 2004 3:47 am

So I'm a glutton for punishment. I had to try a game 1 on 1 and the computer went first and it was very clever. I've never played such an uneven game in my life. I won easily in 5 days.

The secret to winning under these conditions is to cut your opponent off the first move so that several of his men die. Creative positioning of castles is necessary to prevent your own territory from being cut. Once you kill the first few men, never let up. Build spearmen on the second day, a knight on the third and wipe him out by the fifth.

Fusion :roll:

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

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Leon
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Post by Leon » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:19 pm

I played about 100 games using the "auto-move" function for speed.

When the puter is "clever" or "very clever" AND goes first, there is no way at all to win.

On my first turn, it's not possible to cut him off in enough places to kill a large number of its peasants let alone its spearmen.

On its second turn, the puter takes an overwhelming advantage. Many times, it has already 1-2 Knights. There is not much one can do on this second turn to counter its positions.

By the time the puter has played its 3rd turn, human defeat is certain.

I would be very interested to view the file of of a game when the human goes 2cd and wins against "very clever" going 1st in a 1 v 1 match.

I am not saying this is not possible, it's just that it's beyond my own intelligence to comprehend how this could happen.

Thanks,
leon (lef@tiscali.ch)
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sid6.7
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one on one

Post by sid6.7 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:54 pm

i had never played 1 vs 1 yet so i did...so far i cant lose
if you play your first turn careful the computer never recovers...

1 VS 2 is about the same

1 VS 3 you rarely lose

1 VS 4 5 6....good games you can lose, but generally
in 5-7 days...rarely if you survive those
first few do you die...sometimes you place 2nd...

as to if you go first i dont know i have not looked at that..
if you run..you'll only die tired

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Leon
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Re: one on one

Post by Leon » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:10 pm

sid6.7 wrote:i had never played 1 vs 1 yet so i did...so far i cant lose
if you play your first turn careful the computer never recovers...


as to if you go first i dont know i have not looked at that..



Please clarify : are you saying you win when you go first or when you are second to play ? (in a 1 v 1 game)

My contention is that it is NOT possible to win a 1 v 1 game against the computer "very clever" when it goes first.

Indeed, I also win every single game when I am first to play. The advantage of playing first is overwhelming. The computer never recovers, however clever it is.

I play the map "maximum" which is the largest possible square, so the terrain has no influence.

To back up my contention, I played as 1 human v 1 human to that I could follow exactly how the turns are played by each. Every time, I clicked on "auto-move" so that in fact the puter plays for each human in turn.

The result was invariably the same : the player to play first invariably wins.

If anyone beats "very clever" in a 1 v 1 game - when the puter goes first - it can only the the result of some fluke. I shall stand corrected when someone produces the evidence to the contrary.

I wonder if the conceptor has an opinion on this.
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Fusion_power
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Post by Fusion_power » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:33 pm

Leon,

The "proof" is right in front of your eyes. You are using automove. The computer is a LOUSY player. The only time I ever use automove is on the very last move of a game where there is no possible way the comp can screw it up.

Your point seems to be that YOU can't beat the computer in a 1 vs 1 game if the computer goes first. I am absolutely certain that YOU are correct.

Just for the sake of argument, try to play island 131 as 1v1. Its ultra easy to win on very clever even when the computer goes first.

Fusion

A man who wants to loan you a raincoat when its not raining isn't doing you much of a favor.

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Post by Fusion_power » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:49 am

Leon,

If you will send me a message with an email address I'll mail you the .SLY files that show how to play "maximum" and win 1 vs 1 and computer goes first and on very clever. It took 8 days which is longer than I expected. My only excuse is that my solution was not even near optimum.

We now know that you don't live in Switzerland and you don't eat Swiss cheese. The auto player in Slay hates Swiss cheese with a passion, mostly because he doesn't understand it. Think carefully before you criticize this statement. Knowing how to make Swiss cheese of your opponent is the key to winning in Slay.

Fusion

Most times, the simpler things are the better they work.

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sid6.7
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1 VS 1

Post by sid6.7 » Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:19 am

okay ive tried it now with going second so far i can't win
the best i've lasted is 9 days so far...

my only response to that is the game sean intended was
that you play on islands NOT the whole map filled in with land.

the page for maps says "islands" which means you need
ocean,bays,lakes,rivers,penisula's etc...and the way you
play your men is based on that type of geography where
you can block movement of your opponenets, cut someone
off etc...in a square MAX map your not going to get that
type of movement, your enemy is in effect coming at you
from 360 degrees...which can nullify the effect of knights
barons and castles...theres no way to truley consolodate
your empire and have a "frontline" or 2 to attack...

and again i suggest that if you play with less then 3-4 players
your just gonna get pounded in the long run...

although fusion may have a way to win :)
if you run..you'll only die tired

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Post by Fusion_power » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:03 am

Sid,

1 vs 1 games are easy to win, just remember Napoleon's favorite tactic "divide and conquer". As for not being intended to play this way, Slay is designed this way and its a legitimate though not very interesting game.

The trick is to force the comp player to starve in an area but leave a path for him to re-open that territory with a knight. Then cut his knight(s) off and make them starve. Repeat as often as necessary while making swiss cheese of the territory he dies in.

Fusion

Cow manure and flim flam both smell sweet at first but the cow manure will make your soil richer.

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Leon
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Re: 1 VS 1

Post by Leon » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:58 pm

sid6.7 wrote:okay ive tried it now with going second so far i can't win
the best i've lasted is 9 days so far...

my only response to that is the game sean intended was
that you play on islands NOT the whole map filled in with land.


and again i suggest that if you play with less then 3-4 players
your just gonna get pounded in the long run...

although fusion may have a way to win :)



OK so I am not alone to be left with the impression that going 2cd presents an almost unsurmountable task against the puter.

I take take the point about the landscape which indeed offers opportunities. Please let me know when you have found islands suitable for survival and final win. So far, I have not.

Fortunately, we have Fusion_power to lead us of of despair.
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Leon
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Post by Leon » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:13 pm

Fusion_power wrote:



If you will send me a message with an email address I'll mail you the .SLY files that show how to play "maximum" and win 1 vs 1 and computer goes first and on very clever. It took 8 days which is longer than I expected. My only excuse is that my solution was not even near optimum.


I cited my email in a previous post. I repeat (lef@tiscali.ch) without the brackets of course.


We now know that you don't live in Switzerland and you don't eat Swiss cheese.


Oh .. but I do and I love our local cheese. It's just that it goes straight to my stomach before injecting into my brain the badly needed proteins.

I have tried 10 times island 131, going 2cd against "clever". Ten pitiful defeats ... my spirit is a a low ebb ...

Please be my saviour : send me the file which will teach me your ingenius strategy. There is no shame in being less intelligent than others. It's the way of the world.

Thanks for your patience, leon
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Post by Fusion_power » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:38 pm

Leon,

Files sent. Good luck!

Fusion

A man who will sit down and really think about a problem for just 5 minutes can do just about anything he sets his mind to.

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Post by Leon » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:24 am

Fusion_power :

Thank you so much for sharing your maps demonstrating your winning strategy.

Let me confess : I viewed and reviewed them. Again and again. But to no avail. When I try to implement on my own your ingenius strategy, I fail miserably.

So .. what else can I say ? You are a very clever cookie ! I doubt that I shall ever catch up with you. Oh well ... it's a game of intelligence after all in which each one discovers his limits ...

Well done and thanks again for sharing.

With admirative regards,
leon
Intelligence is a tool to fight the forces of evil.

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