Enemy Arty Advantage?

Real time World War II combat simulation
Knut
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Enemy Arty Advantage?

Post by Knut » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:06 pm

I have had the enemy drop full "fire for effect" bombardments on different parts of the battlefield less than a minute apart. Has anyone else had this happen? It was definitely the enemy AI, not me misfiring or something. Very strange. A full bombardment landed on my troops on a hill, and then barely after the smoked cleared, another bombardment landed on some woods about 100m away, without rangeing shots.

I actually think its kind of cool, and wish we would see more of this kind of unpredictability in the game. Kind of like when I suggested that the number of rounds the enemy has available for its arty should be variable. Makes things more realistic, I think.
Last edited by Knut on Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheKangaroo
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Post by TheKangaroo » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:06 pm

Would be great to have that for both sides. A variable on the amount of shells available and a second variable on the number of batteries. Maybe even a third one for the number of guns for each battery, so there would be 'rather light' barrages mixed with 'enough iron to start a steel mill' barrages.

JeanBoule
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Artillery

Post by JeanBoule » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:22 pm

I have not noticed more than one barrage on different targets in rapid succession. A barrage being one to three eight round salvoes on the one target.
What often happens is that I often don't notice any ranging rounds falling near the troops which get bombarded. So far I have thought that I have been too busy doing other things but Knut's comment makes me wonder. So far I have never thought that the AI "cheated" in any way.
I have noticed a few times recently that the barrage "fire for effect" lands considerably displaced from where it was aimed, such that only one or two rounds land inside the target ellipse.
I agree with TheKangaroo that a lot more could be done with artillery in this game.
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Knut
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Re: Artillery

Post by Knut » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:03 pm

JeanBoule wrote:I have noticed a few times recently that the barrage "fire for effect" lands considerably displaced from where it was aimed, such that only one or two rounds land inside the target ellipse.


If you notice at the beginning of a game, there is a wind direction indicator in the mission objective. This shows that the wind can cause shots to drift out of the targeted area, and you should aim your bombardment accordingly. It is a cool feature of the game!

JeanBoule
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Wind Drift

Post by JeanBoule » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:08 pm

Does that really affect the fall of HE rounds?

I only take it into account when using smoke, believing that the rounds would fall where aimed, but the smoke from them would be blown by the wind, which must be allowed for.

I know I also usually forget where the wind was from, so if there is nothing actually burning on the battlefield, I just hafta guess!

I could also complain that the FF mortars don't have smoke rounds. I once saw a firepower demonstration, it was pointed out that mortar smoke (white phosphorous) had an instant effect, which cleared fairly soon, and artillery smoke was some other chemical process. The arty smoke took longer to build up to a thick screen, but also persisted longer than mortar smoke.
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Andy Brown
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Re: Wind Drift

Post by Andy Brown » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:32 am

JeanBoule wrote:I know I also usually forget where the wind was from, so if there is nothing actually burning on the battlefield, I just hafta guess!


<View> - <Mission Objective> anytime during play.

JeanBoule
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Post by JeanBoule » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:46 pm

Thanks for that Andy.

I have had more instances of woeful artillery accuracy. It seems to happen more often than not. BTW, I do not think that wind would substantially affect the accuracy of arty, because the ranging process would eliminate the effect, unless the wind was severely gusty, I suppose.

Check this.

Image

two salvoes have been fired, most have landed outside the target area.

There is a MG still firing, so not suppressed. It may be an AFV.

cheers
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Knut
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Post by Knut » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:04 pm

JeanBoule wrote:Thanks for that Andy.

I have had more instances of woeful artillery accuracy. It seems to happen more often than not. BTW, I do not think that wind would substantially affect the accuracy of arty, because the ranging process would eliminate the effect, unless the wind was severely gusty, I suppose.

Check this.

Image

two salvoes have been fired, most have landed outside the target area.

There is a MG still firing, so not suppressed. It may be an AFV.

cheers


That has happened to me as well, but I think of it as one of the more "realistic" aspects of the game. One can never assume that your arty support will destroy a target, or even sufficiently suppress it. I have read many accounts of an artillery barrage missing the target completely, or having zero affect due to the enemy's position, etc. We also must always remember that even having artillery support is a wishful bonus. By far the majority of company-sized actions during the war occured without any artillery support whatsoever, and even when it did occur, it was very likely to be entirely one-sided.

The Arbiter
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Post by The Arbiter » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:51 pm

Jean,it looked like the arty was trying to miss.

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Post by Andy Brown » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:05 am

A battery of 8 105 mm guns (which I believe the FF off-map artillery is meant to represent) firing a simple concentration would have a MINIMUM impact area of 150 x 150 metres, which is at least six times the size of the FF artillery targetting circle.

The issue is not that FF artillery is unreasonably inaccurate (it isn't) but that the rounds fall in a much tighter group than they would have done on a WW2 battlefield.

In FF, I think nothing of calling down 105mm artillery on targets 50 metres from my own troops. For real in WW2, this would only have been done in desperate circumstances. With the point of aim only 50 metres away, my troops are well inside the artillery battery's beaten zone and will probably take casualties themselves.

This doesn't happen in FF because the rounds all fall in a nice tight group close to the adjusted point of aim.

Cheers,

Andy Brown

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Legacy
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Post by Legacy » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:46 pm

The AI just dropped at least three salvos of artillery on the extreme right of my advance(up inside THEIR left flank).

The funny part?

The only troops I had there were the remains of a recon team that had had one of their men disabled. Meanwhile, a huge attack went unhampered by artillery and swept the enemy right. It appears the AI isn't any better at deciding where to bombard than I am.

Oh, and one of my recon troops is still alive.
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Post by Andy Brown » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:40 pm

I'm not sure but I think that what the AI doesn't do that maybe a human player might is to cancel fire missions that were plotted on troops that it can see have moved away from the target area.

The AI's actually caught me out a couple of times with this. It's called fire down on some of my leading troops who've stopped on a hill to provide overwatch. By the time the fire has arrived, the leading troops have moved on but the fire kills my commander, who's moved up onto the hill in the meantime because it's a good, high place to command from :(

Andy

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Legacy
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Post by Legacy » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:34 am

I've had commanders weather the full weight of multiple barrages before. In one game, everyone in the HQ squad was killed or immobilized. I was still alive, but it probably took a lot of pretty nurses to get me fit to go back into combat for the next one.
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The Arbiter
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Post by The Arbiter » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:57 pm

I can never get past mission 5 of a campaign because some how the ai's arty finds me or I get shot because my position is overrun in a defence scenario.

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Andy
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Post by Andy » Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:37 pm

the way im using to get around this - play the part of your commanders replacement. by this i mean when you get killed, start a new campaign with the same country in the month your last guy kicked the bucket

this way you still progress through the war, the challange being to use as few commanders as possible. I range from 1 up to mid 20s. Haven't come up with an ethical system for deciding to finish the current battle or not, though.
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Last edited by Andy on Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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