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Stalemate, Carbines, Assault rifles, LMGs

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am
by JeanBoule
After thinking about the discussion about "What is a carbine" I decided to see what would happen if I tried to simulate assault rifles in Firefight. I did this by modifying a german infantry definition in the Data folder, so that each man was armed with a LMG with 100 rounds, and the last man with the same 280 rounds.

I then ran a game set in 1944 against french troops, Inf and tanks in village terrain, easy level, to see what sort of difference the extra firepower made. I traded my AFVs for more infantry. I can't remember why I did that, but as it turned out the enemy did not use any tanks or guns.

As a basis for comparison I first ran the game with 13 squads of Volksgrenadiers, each 11 men armed with rifles, carbines and panzerfausts. As they are so cheap I could afford 6 squads of heavy mortars(HMor) as well. These guys did their usual good job that I have found. Victory came in 31minutes, own cas 13 killed, 15 wounded, 143 survived out of 171. I write this as 13k15w143s/171. Enemy had 58k5p2s/65. 5p is 5 taken prisoner. I had ample troops, I even sent 3 squads exploiting beyond the objective.

Next I used 12 SS grenadier squads, each 8 men, rifles, 1SMG, 1LMG.
They won in 40m with 21k22w81s/124. en 40k19p6s/65.

Then I restarted the game and used the all-LMG soldiers. I decided to buy nearly the same number (5) of HMors so essentially the same strategy could be used. Because they cost more, I had just 6 infantry squads each with 10 LMGs. I thought this was still plenty of manoevre elements, whereas in the first two games I had an excess. I could still attack in the centre and both flanks, the enemy layout being fairly compact.

Things proceeded as before for a while. The added firepower did not seem to translate into faster progress. After 38 minutes, the squads would not move to close with the enemy. I tried more supporting fire and using smoke, it didn't seem to make much difference. I then committed my reserve squad, previously well back from the action. They moved forward but before getting into contact - they stopped! I waited. Before long I had no HE, no smoke and no mortar ammo left. about this time I saved the game, then left it running and resumed normal life for a while. shortly later, the computer had one of its random crashes. So when I came back I loaded the saved game and resumed where I had left off. The squads still sat where they were. This time I carried out my action of last resort which is to move the HQ to the reluctant section to lead them by the hand where they were sposed to go - not straight towards the enemy but around to a flank to a covered area. After a while 6 out of the 10 followed the HQ to the position of another squad but not further. The reserve squad had as yet not been shot at.

After a bit of a wait I moved the HQ to the desired position, or at least I moved the blue bar. The commander moved, the three other HQ men did not. The Commander got within range of the enemy, when he "routed" back to the troops, then "dashed" forward again. He cycled around several times, routing and dashing. Nobody else moved.

I left the game to run, and after 120 minutes, the result was given as Failure, with 18k12w66s/96. En 35k12w5p/65.

I found this a very intriguing result. I don't think the reluctance was due to excessive casualties. Is it something about the way the soldiers behave, as LMG gunners rather than riflemen? I will be trying them out some more to see if this happens with any consistency.

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 12:43 pm
by Andy Brown
How much ammo did your "assault riflemen" have at the end of the game?

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 2:44 pm
by TheKangaroo
I guess it has to do with the behaviour of LMG soldiers. As you know a light machine gun by the time of the second world war was a somewhat heavier and more cumbersome gadget than the support guns in use today. Anyway I don't believe that equipping all your soldiers with LMGs simulates assault rifles too well, which raises the question: is it possible to change actual weapon parameters? Increasing the range of the SMGs would seem a better way to me, if that was possible after all.

Stalemate etc

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:08 pm
by JeanBoule
Thanks for comments.

Andy - I think most squads were down to about 30% of their ammo, the uncommitted squad had more. Overall the inf ammo was low but not critical, the arty and mortar was nil as I said. That was another thing I wanted to try with this fascinating game, start battles with not much ammo and see what happens. I gather from some of your other threads that HMGs and LMGs get very conservative when they have used a certain amount.

Kangaroo - I take your point about LMGs. I cannot at this stage see any way of modifying infantry weapon performance. I believe we can change guns and AFVs performance but not infantry. As I understand it so far, the game assumes rifle performance is the same for all nations, likewise LMG, SMG etc.

I think one of the chinese squads has all SMGs. I don't recall if I have tried it. Historically, I believe there were Soviet battalions armed entirely with SMGs.

I have done a bit of a read of Wikipedia about these weapons. In brief, it is clear that the german assault rifle was effective to 300 metres, whereas the US M1 carbine was effective to 200 at most. The M1 was not intended to be a first-line infantry weapon.


LMGs to simulate Assault rifles.

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:19 am
by JeanBoule
More tests of all LMG squads.
I started a game assault, only inf,very easy, Jul44,lowlands, France, Me German, enemy American. Game code 8389974.
The terrain is mostly open, objective is the isolated farm, enemy were in the farm and the wood in the centre/east. There were 2 approaches, a wide left hook avoiding intermediate defenders which allowed an attack on the farm and a right of centre approach fighting thru the woods.
1.SS, all LMGs 5squads, 2Lmor 2recce , LeftHook approach
Victory in 39m 5k6w41s/52 en 21kw9p/30
2. same troops, Right approach. By the time they fought past the outer defenses, they did not have enough puff left to successfully attack the farm. Failed in 40mins, 19k12w2p19s/52 en 24k4w2p10s/40
3. Volksgrenadiers, I only used 5 squads, 2 Lmor, 2recce. I had a lot of points not spent! Using the Left Hook approach they won in less time and less casualties than the SS!
4. Volksgrenadiers same numbers, using the Right approach, Victory in 35m 5k15w66s/86 en 33k7p/40
they seemed to get there easier than the SS with fewer casualties.

Actually the Volksgrenadiers were effectively 9 man squads because the 2 with Panzerfausts had nothing to shoot at.

My tentative belief is that the LMGs dont seem to make a lot of difference. The Volksgrenadiers seem to do best, even though they are RAW level troops.

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:00 am
by Andy Brown
The Firefight model tends to reward quantity over quality. If every soldier on the smaller force suppresses one man from the larger force, there will still be "unmarked" soldiers on the larger force able to fire without being distracted. It's not quite as simple as that but you get the idea.

ELITE troops are supposed to be more accurate but I suspect they may not be more accurate enough. They're also supposed to be "less suppressable" but I suspect they're also not "less suppressable" enough.

My feeling is that the difference in abilities between the three troop classes needs to be greater but I don't know enough about the inner workings of Firefight to be able to say that for sure.



Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:27 pm
by JeanBoule
Andy Brown wrote:The Firefight model tends to reward quantity........ there will still be "unmarked" soldiers on the larger force
Yes, I agree. Even the Panzerfaust carriers are a distracting target I think.
Now who was that military genius who said "quantity has a quality all its own"? I used to read some heavy literature about the threatened NATO/Warsaw Pact conflict in the 70s/80s. In artillery, the WP outnumbered NATO by TEN TO ONE! Even if NATO had technical superiority, you wouldn't want the WP's crude artillery to "get lucky" very much.
Andy Brown wrote:ELITE troops are .......supposed to be "less suppressable" .
I would have expected that but I don't notice any difference, except where I wouldn't expect it, like Volksgrenadiers being so effective. I find my own troops seem to get suppressed by friendly fire falling on the enemy, because of the suppression outside the target zone effect described elsewhere. By the time my guys get moving, the enemy also have their heads back up and are shooting from concealment at my standing troops. So they go to ground again and all momentum is lost. As for keeping formation - forget it!


Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:13 pm
by Andy Brown
JeanBoule wrote:By the time my guys get moving, the enemy also have their heads back up and are shooting from concealment at my standing troops. So they go to ground again and all momentum is lost. As for keeping formation - forget it!
Keep your assault troops a bit further back while the arty bombardment suppresses the enemy and use fire support squads/MGs to keep the enemy suppressed while the assault troops close with the objective. Remember that you don't have to see any enemy on the objective to give a unit a "Fire" command to engage the general area.

(objective in this context meaning the enemy position you wish to attack, not necessarily where the flag is)

Andy (NZ)

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:19 pm
by Andy Brown
On troop quality.

A possible solution is to mod ELITE squads so that only half the troops are ELITE. This gives you some increase in quality while keeping the cost down so that ELITE units aren't quite so outnumbered.

You can do the same thing with RAW troops - make some of them REGULAR so that there aren't quite so many of them.

Andy (NZ)

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:56 pm
by Perturabo
I think that the best way to show StG-44 in current game would be to give StG soldiers a rifle with 200 rounds of ammo (7 magazines x 30 rounds) as it should be used mostly in semi-automatic mode anyway.

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:55 pm
by Dylan735
The rifles are bolt action... do you mean carbine?

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 am
by Knut
So did we settle settle the difference between rifles and carbines as carbines can fire faster, besides having shorter range?

The ideal modeling of an assault rifle would be having 3 shot bursts at carbine range.

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:49 pm
by Dylan735
Yeah, pretty much.

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:43 pm
by Perturabo
Dylan735 wrote:The rifles are bolt action... do you mean carbine?
Yes, I meant carbines.

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:48 pm
by johnDjoker
im new here and i yet interested.
to this game to learn more about it.

I am proud of the fact that I invented weapons like police billy club to be our self defense in times of trouble.